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	<title>Comments for Son Buddhism</title>
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		<title>Comment on FAQ by Haemin Seunim</title>
		<link>http://son-buddhism.org/faq/#comment-3</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Haemin Seunim]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 21:10:09 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[On the FAQ page, you state, &quot;To my knowledge there are no Buddhist texts which forbid abortion or could be interpreted as forbidding abortion.&quot;  Actually, there are early scriptural sources that state quite directly that abortion constitutes murder as consciousness enters the body-to-be (the fertilized egg) at the moment of conception.  This includes the Vinaya which states that monks who help women have an abortion commit a parajika, thus destroying their ordination.  Check out Buddhism and Abortion edited by Damien Keown.  More scriptural sources are cited in James P. McDermott&#039;s chapter in this volume.  

I would agree, though, that there are no Buddhist leaders or groups calling for abortion to be made illegal.  The response to abortion in at least some Buddhist countries on the part of the clergy seems to be rather pragmatic.  In both Japan and S. Korea, temples often provide non-judgemental religious services for aborted children.

As for homosexuality, there is a story in the Vinaya of a man who requests ordination from the Buddha.  The other monks know him and warn the Buddha that this man is known to expose his backside, bend over and offer sex to the monks.  They urge the Buddha not to ordain him and the Buddha agrees.  This seems to form at least some of the basis for barring homosexuals from receiving the full ordination in all of the Asian Buddhist traditions I am aware of, including our own Taego order. The confucian influence in East Asian Buddhism is also a contributing factor.  In the Japanese traditions where the Vinaya is no longer used at all, while there may be no official rule against the ordination of gays and lesbians, if an openly gay man, holding his partner&#039;s hand, approached a temple and requested ordination, he would most likely be turned down.  

My personal interpretation of the story from the Vinaya cited above is that this man is barred from ordination not because he is gay, but because his motivation for ordination is not proper.  He seems to want to ordain for the purpose of having sexual access to other monks.  In other words, the description of this man is not indicative of all gay men.  I would argue that because sexuality, gender/sex, race/ethnicity, nationality, etc... are all only aspects of a temporary identity, discrimination does not make sense.  Anyone who&#039;s motivation for ordination is improper, whether they are looking for sexual partners, cult leader-like status, an easy life living off of alms from laypeople or whatever, should not be ordained.  

Our bishop, Ven. Jongmae Park, along with some of his colleagues in more than one Buddhist order, formed the Mook Rim Society to provide ordinations without such restrictions.  As you mentioned, there are other options for ordination as well in the West.  Bishop Park has also encouraged the Taego order to liberalize it&#039;s rules for ordination in relation to sexual orientation and other issues.

It seems to me that the ability of gay men and lesbians to ordain in Buddhist orders in the West stems from the fact that many of these ordination are not registered with a parent organization in Asia.  In addition, some ordination options, like the Mook Rim Society I mentioned are entirely independent of any Asian Buddhist order.  I hope the trend toward greater inclusivity continues.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On the FAQ page, you state, &#8220;To my knowledge there are no Buddhist texts which forbid abortion or could be interpreted as forbidding abortion.&#8221;  Actually, there are early scriptural sources that state quite directly that abortion constitutes murder as consciousness enters the body-to-be (the fertilized egg) at the moment of conception.  This includes the Vinaya which states that monks who help women have an abortion commit a parajika, thus destroying their ordination.  Check out Buddhism and Abortion edited by Damien Keown.  More scriptural sources are cited in James P. McDermott&#8217;s chapter in this volume.  </p>
<p>I would agree, though, that there are no Buddhist leaders or groups calling for abortion to be made illegal.  The response to abortion in at least some Buddhist countries on the part of the clergy seems to be rather pragmatic.  In both Japan and S. Korea, temples often provide non-judgemental religious services for aborted children.</p>
<p>As for homosexuality, there is a story in the Vinaya of a man who requests ordination from the Buddha.  The other monks know him and warn the Buddha that this man is known to expose his backside, bend over and offer sex to the monks.  They urge the Buddha not to ordain him and the Buddha agrees.  This seems to form at least some of the basis for barring homosexuals from receiving the full ordination in all of the Asian Buddhist traditions I am aware of, including our own Taego order. The confucian influence in East Asian Buddhism is also a contributing factor.  In the Japanese traditions where the Vinaya is no longer used at all, while there may be no official rule against the ordination of gays and lesbians, if an openly gay man, holding his partner&#8217;s hand, approached a temple and requested ordination, he would most likely be turned down.  </p>
<p>My personal interpretation of the story from the Vinaya cited above is that this man is barred from ordination not because he is gay, but because his motivation for ordination is not proper.  He seems to want to ordain for the purpose of having sexual access to other monks.  In other words, the description of this man is not indicative of all gay men.  I would argue that because sexuality, gender/sex, race/ethnicity, nationality, etc&#8230; are all only aspects of a temporary identity, discrimination does not make sense.  Anyone who&#8217;s motivation for ordination is improper, whether they are looking for sexual partners, cult leader-like status, an easy life living off of alms from laypeople or whatever, should not be ordained.  </p>
<p>Our bishop, Ven. Jongmae Park, along with some of his colleagues in more than one Buddhist order, formed the Mook Rim Society to provide ordinations without such restrictions.  As you mentioned, there are other options for ordination as well in the West.  Bishop Park has also encouraged the Taego order to liberalize it&#8217;s rules for ordination in relation to sexual orientation and other issues.</p>
<p>It seems to me that the ability of gay men and lesbians to ordain in Buddhist orders in the West stems from the fact that many of these ordination are not registered with a parent organization in Asia.  In addition, some ordination options, like the Mook Rim Society I mentioned are entirely independent of any Asian Buddhist order.  I hope the trend toward greater inclusivity continues.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Breathe. by Mr WordPress</title>
		<link>http://son-buddhism.org/2012/01/12/hello-world/#comment-1</link>
		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr WordPress]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 12 Jan 2012 20:09:33 +0000</pubDate>
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		<description><![CDATA[Hi, this is a comment.&lt;br /&gt;To delete a comment, just log in, and view the posts&#039; comments, there you will have the option to edit or delete them.]]></description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi, this is a comment.<br />To delete a comment, just log in, and view the posts&#8217; comments, there you will have the option to edit or delete them.</p>
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